<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments for Consider The Gospel</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.considerthegospel.org/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org</link>
	<description>Your site to understand, assess and interact with &#039;The Good News&#039;</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:26:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.4</generator>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Origins: Evolution or Design &#8211; why touch it? by Justin Tong</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/2012/02/06/origins-evolution-or-design-why/#comment-161</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Tong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?p=379#comment-161</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read the article yet, but I already have a comment about Creation science as a whole.

No matter how you slice it, Creationism always comes back to a magical God who knows everything, can do anything and has purposes for doing things that we don&#039;t always understand. How can a Creationist ever be soundly refuted? If worse comes to worst, a Creationist can always say, &quot;God foresaw everything, including this conflict between Bible-believers and evolutionists. He must have planted all the evidence for evolution as a means of testing us, to separate the truly faithful from those who rely too much on logic.&quot; (The more I think about it, the more likely it seems to me that some people actually think around these lines.)

That&#039;s why, I think, that it is often said that Creation science is an oxymoron.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read the article yet, but I already have a comment about Creation science as a whole.</p>
<p>No matter how you slice it, Creationism always comes back to a magical God who knows everything, can do anything and has purposes for doing things that we don&#8217;t always understand. How can a Creationist ever be soundly refuted? If worse comes to worst, a Creationist can always say, &#8220;God foresaw everything, including this conflict between Bible-believers and evolutionists. He must have planted all the evidence for evolution as a means of testing us, to separate the truly faithful from those who rely too much on logic.&#8221; (The more I think about it, the more likely it seems to me that some people actually think around these lines.)</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why, I think, that it is often said that Creation science is an oxymoron.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Session 2. Considering Truth: Glimpsing the Moral Law &#8230; and God behind it by Justin Tong</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/home/session-2-ethics/#comment-160</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Tong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?page_id=31#comment-160</guid>
		<description>About Russell...a standard doesn&#039;t have to be absolute to be a standard that transcends oneself. One&#039;s standard can easily be the law of one&#039;s country, or more commonly, the general feelings of one&#039;s society.

We can revisit your own initial example as an illustration. We say &#039;up&#039; and &#039;down&#039; without explicitly referring to the Earth&#039;s surface, although the Earth&#039;s surface is indeed the standard against  which we are implicitly measuring. But then go into space, and suddenly up and down are (more obviously) subjective. And yet, &#039;up&#039; and &#039;down&#039; still have meaning -- not absolutely, perhaps, but they are still words that help us to communicate (in this case, to convey ideas about direction).

In other words, while there is no absolute &#039;up&#039; or &#039;down,&#039; we can still say &#039;up&#039; and &#039;down.&#039; You&#039;re right, their everyday usage needs a standard outside of ourselves -- but that standard is the Earth, not some abstract code that specifies &#039;up&#039; and &#039;down.&#039; In the same way, ethics do not need a heavenly lawgiver to specify &#039;right&#039; and &#039;wrong,&#039; just a standard outside of the individual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About Russell&#8230;a standard doesn&#8217;t have to be absolute to be a standard that transcends oneself. One&#8217;s standard can easily be the law of one&#8217;s country, or more commonly, the general feelings of one&#8217;s society.</p>
<p>We can revisit your own initial example as an illustration. We say &#8216;up&#8217; and &#8216;down&#8217; without explicitly referring to the Earth&#8217;s surface, although the Earth&#8217;s surface is indeed the standard against  which we are implicitly measuring. But then go into space, and suddenly up and down are (more obviously) subjective. And yet, &#8216;up&#8217; and &#8216;down&#8217; still have meaning &#8212; not absolutely, perhaps, but they are still words that help us to communicate (in this case, to convey ideas about direction).</p>
<p>In other words, while there is no absolute &#8216;up&#8217; or &#8216;down,&#8217; we can still say &#8216;up&#8217; and &#8216;down.&#8217; You&#8217;re right, their everyday usage needs a standard outside of ourselves &#8212; but that standard is the Earth, not some abstract code that specifies &#8216;up&#8217; and &#8216;down.&#8217; In the same way, ethics do not need a heavenly lawgiver to specify &#8216;right&#8217; and &#8216;wrong,&#8217; just a standard outside of the individual.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Session 2. Considering Truth: Glimpsing the Moral Law &#8230; and God behind it by Justin Tong</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/home/session-2-ethics/#comment-159</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Tong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?page_id=31#comment-159</guid>
		<description>Correct me if I&#039;ve misunderstood, but I think you are saying that when a practice is morally wrong, we perceive it as &#039;wrong,&#039; whereas when a practice is different from what is familiar to us yet morally neutral, we perceive it as simply &#039;different&#039; or at worst &#039;not to our preference.&#039;

Let me ask you: who is this &#039;we&#039;? Perhaps I feel that not head-hunting is morally wrong because it means I am treating my slain enemy with less respect that he deserves. And, as you hinted with your aside on religion, there are others who would indeed take moral issue with clothing -- it is not &#039;right&#039; for a woman to bare her torso, for example, because it incites lust.

If I had a lower opinion of your ability to reason I might go on to ask &quot;So is it simply the majority that determine what is morally right and wrong, then?&quot; because that seems to be the implication. But I know that&#039;s not what you mean.

At the same time, though, if you can point to the cross-cultural similarities in ethical frameworks and say, &quot;This is evidence for absolute morality,&quot; then I can point to the cross-cultural differences and say, &quot;This is evidence against absolute morality.&quot; Your statement about defective morality is premised on the assumption that morality is absolute, which makes it a circular argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct me if I&#8217;ve misunderstood, but I think you are saying that when a practice is morally wrong, we perceive it as &#8216;wrong,&#8217; whereas when a practice is different from what is familiar to us yet morally neutral, we perceive it as simply &#8216;different&#8217; or at worst &#8216;not to our preference.&#8217;</p>
<p>Let me ask you: who is this &#8216;we&#8217;? Perhaps I feel that not head-hunting is morally wrong because it means I am treating my slain enemy with less respect that he deserves. And, as you hinted with your aside on religion, there are others who would indeed take moral issue with clothing &#8212; it is not &#8216;right&#8217; for a woman to bare her torso, for example, because it incites lust.</p>
<p>If I had a lower opinion of your ability to reason I might go on to ask &#8220;So is it simply the majority that determine what is morally right and wrong, then?&#8221; because that seems to be the implication. But I know that&#8217;s not what you mean.</p>
<p>At the same time, though, if you can point to the cross-cultural similarities in ethical frameworks and say, &#8220;This is evidence for absolute morality,&#8221; then I can point to the cross-cultural differences and say, &#8220;This is evidence against absolute morality.&#8221; Your statement about defective morality is premised on the assumption that morality is absolute, which makes it a circular argument.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on From Soapberry Bugs to SuperBugs:  Nature’s slippery slide down &amp; Naturalism’s slipperiness all around. by Justin Tong</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/2012/02/13/from-soapberry-bugs-to-superbugs-nature%e2%80%99s-slippery-slide-down-naturalism%e2%80%99s-slipperiness-all-around/#comment-158</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Tong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?p=396#comment-158</guid>
		<description>Them soapberry bug researchers never claimed to see a growth in the set of patterns, only a shift in the distribution. It is also highly unlikely that the set of patterns shrank, which, if that were your hypothesis, would predict the population&#039;s inability to recover longer beaks again (which is not observed, as beak lengths can indeed lengthen).

It&#039;s important to remember that very few traits are determined by simple Mendelian genetics -- for example, height in humans (and probably beak length in soapberry bugs) is influenced by a huge number of genes, each of which contributes a little to the overall phenotype. These are called quantitative traits, and the phenomenon of multiple influences is called polygenism. In other words, it is doubtful that the soapberry bug population&#039;s allele set went from [A,a] to [a]. I see no loss of information. But no, I wouldn&#039;t say there was a gain of information either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Them soapberry bug researchers never claimed to see a growth in the set of patterns, only a shift in the distribution. It is also highly unlikely that the set of patterns shrank, which, if that were your hypothesis, would predict the population&#8217;s inability to recover longer beaks again (which is not observed, as beak lengths can indeed lengthen).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s important to remember that very few traits are determined by simple Mendelian genetics &#8212; for example, height in humans (and probably beak length in soapberry bugs) is influenced by a huge number of genes, each of which contributes a little to the overall phenotype. These are called quantitative traits, and the phenomenon of multiple influences is called polygenism. In other words, it is doubtful that the soapberry bug population&#8217;s allele set went from [A,a] to [a]. I see no loss of information. But no, I wouldn&#8217;t say there was a gain of information either.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Session 2. Considering Truth: Glimpsing the Moral Law &#8230; and God behind it by oborn</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/home/session-2-ethics/#comment-154</link>
		<dc:creator>oborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2012 01:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?page_id=31#comment-154</guid>
		<description>I guess I used the Dobzhansky et al quotes to raise our curiosity and to get us to look at the question.  But to my mind, Russell betrays his position.  To get a sense of what is meant by being morally right or wrong, or morally better or worse, in a subjective framework, consider this analogy.  When we say ‘up’ or ‘down’, or ‘higher’ or ‘lower’ we are implicitly using an absolute standard – a standard that is outside of us and which we measure ourselves against.  The standard of course is height from earth’s surface measured in the earth’s gravity field.  The distance from the earth’s surface is the standard by which we say something is ‘higher’ or ‘lower’ than another thing, or that a certain object went ‘up’ or ‘down’.  Now imagine a person in deep space, far away from any planet or star - where he feels no gravity and there is no surface.  What is ‘up’ for him? What does ‘higher’ mean?  He may choose to designate ‘up’ or ‘higher’ to be based on his long body axis as he floats through space.  But if he floats along and meets another person who happens to be in a reverse position from him, his ‘up’ would be the others ‘down’.  In that situation it would be apparent that terms like ‘up’, ‘down’, ‘higher’ and ‘lower’ would really be relative or subjective to the person.  These terms would only have meaning based on randomness of how they happen to individually rotate and float through space.  
When Russell uses moral reasoning to say ‘The mayor is wrong to be dishonest’, ‘The newspaper should have courage in fighting for truth’, ‘The department was corrupt’ he is comparing actions against an absolute standard that transcends his and (more importantly) their personal preferences – like a ‘moral’ planet that their actions should align with to give an ‘up’.  Only then do statements of moral ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ have any meaning.  But moral relativists are saying that moral statements are really ‘in space’ with no standard to compare them against except ourselves or conventions of society – i.e. how most of us ‘floating in space’ seem to line up.  But that does not fit with how morality works in us; ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ operate within us in an absolute sense, from a standard that is outside of ourselves.  Russell may deny it, but his moral protests prove otherwise.  
My experiences just considering a subjective vs. objective view of morality are for sure a filter in my mind.  I was a live-in superintendent at university residences for several years, responsible for discipline and order with a hundred or so university students.  I was also a sessional university instructor.  In both of these contexts I noticed that most students, when we talked about ethics and morality from a detached point-of-view of their philosophy of morals, insisted that there was no real or objective right and wrong.  There was no absolute sense of fairness or right conduct.  In their minds it all reduced down to social conditioning and personal preference.  They were free to make up their own standard of fairness and decent behaviour.  In this thinking they were expressing the academic spirit of our age.  But, if they felt that they were unfairly treated in some way (by me in my position) they were quick to complain ‘That’s not fair’, and call on an absolute sense of fairness to bear on their grievances.  It seems to be very difficult (impossible?) for a person to consistently live out a philosophy of ethical relativism or subjective morals when wronged.  Russell, to my mind, is doing the same.
I guess this is getting long so I will end it here.  But thanks for the comments</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I used the Dobzhansky et al quotes to raise our curiosity and to get us to look at the question.  But to my mind, Russell betrays his position.  To get a sense of what is meant by being morally right or wrong, or morally better or worse, in a subjective framework, consider this analogy.  When we say ‘up’ or ‘down’, or ‘higher’ or ‘lower’ we are implicitly using an absolute standard – a standard that is outside of us and which we measure ourselves against.  The standard of course is height from earth’s surface measured in the earth’s gravity field.  The distance from the earth’s surface is the standard by which we say something is ‘higher’ or ‘lower’ than another thing, or that a certain object went ‘up’ or ‘down’.  Now imagine a person in deep space, far away from any planet or star &#8211; where he feels no gravity and there is no surface.  What is ‘up’ for him? What does ‘higher’ mean?  He may choose to designate ‘up’ or ‘higher’ to be based on his long body axis as he floats through space.  But if he floats along and meets another person who happens to be in a reverse position from him, his ‘up’ would be the others ‘down’.  In that situation it would be apparent that terms like ‘up’, ‘down’, ‘higher’ and ‘lower’ would really be relative or subjective to the person.  These terms would only have meaning based on randomness of how they happen to individually rotate and float through space.<br />
When Russell uses moral reasoning to say ‘The mayor is wrong to be dishonest’, ‘The newspaper should have courage in fighting for truth’, ‘The department was corrupt’ he is comparing actions against an absolute standard that transcends his and (more importantly) their personal preferences – like a ‘moral’ planet that their actions should align with to give an ‘up’.  Only then do statements of moral ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ have any meaning.  But moral relativists are saying that moral statements are really ‘in space’ with no standard to compare them against except ourselves or conventions of society – i.e. how most of us ‘floating in space’ seem to line up.  But that does not fit with how morality works in us; ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ operate within us in an absolute sense, from a standard that is outside of ourselves.  Russell may deny it, but his moral protests prove otherwise.<br />
My experiences just considering a subjective vs. objective view of morality are for sure a filter in my mind.  I was a live-in superintendent at university residences for several years, responsible for discipline and order with a hundred or so university students.  I was also a sessional university instructor.  In both of these contexts I noticed that most students, when we talked about ethics and morality from a detached point-of-view of their philosophy of morals, insisted that there was no real or objective right and wrong.  There was no absolute sense of fairness or right conduct.  In their minds it all reduced down to social conditioning and personal preference.  They were free to make up their own standard of fairness and decent behaviour.  In this thinking they were expressing the academic spirit of our age.  But, if they felt that they were unfairly treated in some way (by me in my position) they were quick to complain ‘That’s not fair’, and call on an absolute sense of fairness to bear on their grievances.  It seems to be very difficult (impossible?) for a person to consistently live out a philosophy of ethical relativism or subjective morals when wronged.  Russell, to my mind, is doing the same.<br />
I guess this is getting long so I will end it here.  But thanks for the comments</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Session 2. Considering Truth: Glimpsing the Moral Law &#8230; and God behind it by oborn</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/home/session-2-ethics/#comment-153</link>
		<dc:creator>oborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2012 01:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?page_id=31#comment-153</guid>
		<description>Your points are well taken.  It was largely for the reasons you mention that for a long time I held an objective view rather tenuously.  So I certainly understand where you are coming from.  Your account for development of ethics is certainly plausible.  Dawkins in God Delusion argues along the line you do for the development of ethics.  I will look at his reasoning more in-depth in a later post and perhaps we can discuss this further then.
As for you points about differing values.  I am not saying that every person (or group of people) always get their moral reasoning ‘right’.  Just like we can incorrectly reason logically and arrive at wrong conclusions (or add incorrectly and get the wrong sum), we can incorrectly exercise our values.  Also, similarly to how we can have physical flaws from birth or injury (like astigmatism or hearing loss), or emotional breakdown from stress or abuse, some of us have damaged values that do not function properly.  The notorious serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer would be such an example .  And similar to how physical abnormalities can spread among small population groups, moral defects can also spread in isolated groups.  Head-hunting cannibal tribes in remote jungles would be an example of a group with a defective value.  Our reaction in us when we hear of the ‘morals’ of head-hunting cannibal tribes tells us something about morality because when we hear of those morals we think of them not only as different, but different and also ‘wrong’.  When we hear of jungles tribes wearing grass skirts, or hunting small rodents for food we may think that is different from us, and not to our preference, but we would not perceive it as ‘wrong’.  Diet and clothing are not innately of moral consequence (though religion can impose this on them).  But when we hear of a group of people who think it is normal practice to eat other people, we think that there is something ‘wrong’ (as well as different) with them.  They have, for some reason, a defective Morality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your points are well taken.  It was largely for the reasons you mention that for a long time I held an objective view rather tenuously.  So I certainly understand where you are coming from.  Your account for development of ethics is certainly plausible.  Dawkins in God Delusion argues along the line you do for the development of ethics.  I will look at his reasoning more in-depth in a later post and perhaps we can discuss this further then.<br />
As for you points about differing values.  I am not saying that every person (or group of people) always get their moral reasoning ‘right’.  Just like we can incorrectly reason logically and arrive at wrong conclusions (or add incorrectly and get the wrong sum), we can incorrectly exercise our values.  Also, similarly to how we can have physical flaws from birth or injury (like astigmatism or hearing loss), or emotional breakdown from stress or abuse, some of us have damaged values that do not function properly.  The notorious serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer would be such an example .  And similar to how physical abnormalities can spread among small population groups, moral defects can also spread in isolated groups.  Head-hunting cannibal tribes in remote jungles would be an example of a group with a defective value.  Our reaction in us when we hear of the ‘morals’ of head-hunting cannibal tribes tells us something about morality because when we hear of those morals we think of them not only as different, but different and also ‘wrong’.  When we hear of jungles tribes wearing grass skirts, or hunting small rodents for food we may think that is different from us, and not to our preference, but we would not perceive it as ‘wrong’.  Diet and clothing are not innately of moral consequence (though religion can impose this on them).  But when we hear of a group of people who think it is normal practice to eat other people, we think that there is something ‘wrong’ (as well as different) with them.  They have, for some reason, a defective Morality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on From Soapberry Bugs to SuperBugs:  Nature’s slippery slide down &amp; Naturalism’s slipperiness all around. by oborn</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/2012/02/13/from-soapberry-bugs-to-superbugs-nature%e2%80%99s-slippery-slide-down-naturalism%e2%80%99s-slipperiness-all-around/#comment-150</link>
		<dc:creator>oborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Feb 2012 06:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?p=396#comment-150</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments Justin.  You mention Lenski.  I had been planning on putting up a post on Lenski sometime in the future so I will not address him specifically just now.  But your comments on information do warrant some discussion.  ‘Information’ is not an Intelligent Design or Creation concept.  It is a reality (and concept) that everyone accepts.  For example, in the 2nd video in Session 1, you will note that Richard Dawkins (certainly no ID or creationist) in the interview states:  ’the great mystery of life is to explain where the complexity of life came from … another way of talking about complexity is to say information.  Information is a kind of measure of complexity … and they [animals] look like they are beautifully designed machines…’  To take another evolution textbook which I did not quote in either my post or in the videos of Session 1 talks about information in the following way:

‘Almost all organisms use DNA to encode their genetic information, which is transcribed into RNA and then translated by a single universal genetic code into protein sequence.’ (&lt;em&gt;Evolution&lt;/em&gt;.  2007  by Nicholas H Barton et. al  p.66)  

If you read the Wikipedia article on ‘information’ you will come across the following

&quot;Information is any type of pattern that influences the formation or transformation of other patterns. In this sense, there is no need for a conscious mind to perceive, much less appreciate, the pattern. Consider, for example, DNA. The sequence of nucleotides is a pattern that influences the formation and development of an organism without any need for a conscious mind.&quot;

For further information on ‘information’ (no pun intended) I recommend ‘In the Beginning was Information’ by Dr. Werner Gitt (Director of the German Institute of Physics and Technology).  

But let’s work with these concepts as presented (patterns in the DNA which represent protein sequences) and apply them to the Soapberry bug situation.  It is not that the reduction in length per se of the beak is a loss of information.  It is the reduction in range of sizes.   Some allele (let’s call it ‘A’) was the DNA ‘pattern’ that gave rise to long beaks.  Another allele (let’s call it ‘a’) gave rise to short beaks.  In the pre-1926 population, since there were both long and short beaks present there were more patterns in existence (both ‘A’ and ‘a’) in the genome.  So the set of patterns – the information – was {A,a}.  After 1926 ‘A’ was removed (lost) so the genome is now left with only ‘a’ – leading to short beaks.  In other words we start with a set of patterns {A,a} and end up with a smaller set of {a}.  We end up with less ‘patterns’ than we started with.   
Now evolution is supposed to be a process that over time makes more patterns in the DNA.  This has to be the case since over time new functions, systems and processes have emerged (ex. sight, flight, fur, feathers, hearts and lungs were not there in the beginning but – supposedly – arose over time through a certain process.)  In other words, when you say you ‘believe in evolution’ you are talking about a story of how long long ago (3.5 billion years) the first life arose.  This life had no eyesight, flight etc.  But over a long time, through this process the life form changed so that it eventually gained these new functional properties.  And these functional properties are stored as information in the DNA.  Thus the set of patterns in the DNA would be increasing.  What I was saying is with the Soapberry bug is that this observed process of going from a set of DNA patterns of {A,a} to {a} cannot be this gain.  The set of patterns is shrinking not growing.  They are not observing the process that they think they are by citing this case.  They get away with it by equivocating what they are talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments Justin.  You mention Lenski.  I had been planning on putting up a post on Lenski sometime in the future so I will not address him specifically just now.  But your comments on information do warrant some discussion.  ‘Information’ is not an Intelligent Design or Creation concept.  It is a reality (and concept) that everyone accepts.  For example, in the 2nd video in Session 1, you will note that Richard Dawkins (certainly no ID or creationist) in the interview states:  ’the great mystery of life is to explain where the complexity of life came from … another way of talking about complexity is to say information.  Information is a kind of measure of complexity … and they [animals] look like they are beautifully designed machines…’  To take another evolution textbook which I did not quote in either my post or in the videos of Session 1 talks about information in the following way:</p>
<p>‘Almost all organisms use DNA to encode their genetic information, which is transcribed into RNA and then translated by a single universal genetic code into protein sequence.’ (<em>Evolution</em>.  2007  by Nicholas H Barton et. al  p.66)  </p>
<p>If you read the Wikipedia article on ‘information’ you will come across the following</p>
<p>&#8220;Information is any type of pattern that influences the formation or transformation of other patterns. In this sense, there is no need for a conscious mind to perceive, much less appreciate, the pattern. Consider, for example, DNA. The sequence of nucleotides is a pattern that influences the formation and development of an organism without any need for a conscious mind.&#8221;</p>
<p>For further information on ‘information’ (no pun intended) I recommend ‘In the Beginning was Information’ by Dr. Werner Gitt (Director of the German Institute of Physics and Technology).  </p>
<p>But let’s work with these concepts as presented (patterns in the DNA which represent protein sequences) and apply them to the Soapberry bug situation.  It is not that the reduction in length per se of the beak is a loss of information.  It is the reduction in range of sizes.   Some allele (let’s call it ‘A’) was the DNA ‘pattern’ that gave rise to long beaks.  Another allele (let’s call it ‘a’) gave rise to short beaks.  In the pre-1926 population, since there were both long and short beaks present there were more patterns in existence (both ‘A’ and ‘a’) in the genome.  So the set of patterns – the information – was {A,a}.  After 1926 ‘A’ was removed (lost) so the genome is now left with only ‘a’ – leading to short beaks.  In other words we start with a set of patterns {A,a} and end up with a smaller set of {a}.  We end up with less ‘patterns’ than we started with.<br />
Now evolution is supposed to be a process that over time makes more patterns in the DNA.  This has to be the case since over time new functions, systems and processes have emerged (ex. sight, flight, fur, feathers, hearts and lungs were not there in the beginning but – supposedly – arose over time through a certain process.)  In other words, when you say you ‘believe in evolution’ you are talking about a story of how long long ago (3.5 billion years) the first life arose.  This life had no eyesight, flight etc.  But over a long time, through this process the life form changed so that it eventually gained these new functional properties.  And these functional properties are stored as information in the DNA.  Thus the set of patterns in the DNA would be increasing.  What I was saying is with the Soapberry bug is that this observed process of going from a set of DNA patterns of {A,a} to {a} cannot be this gain.  The set of patterns is shrinking not growing.  They are not observing the process that they think they are by citing this case.  They get away with it by equivocating what they are talking about.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Session 2. Considering Truth: Glimpsing the Moral Law &#8230; and God behind it by Justin Tong</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/home/session-2-ethics/#comment-139</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Tong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 07:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?page_id=31#comment-139</guid>
		<description>I think I&#039;ve talked to you before about my thoughts on the consistencies between the ethics of different cultures. There are some very general ethical principles that are common, yes. But I believe this is so because societies could not function without them, almost like a sort of societal natural selection.

You might then look for societies that have died out due to everyone murdering each other. I don&#039;t know if there are any, but I would also argue that the theory doesn&#039;t need them. Because societies are made up of individuals, who are constantly making decisions and have the ability to change behaviours, societal evolution doesn&#039;t need to happen across generations like organismal evolution. So, ethics can be established at the very start of a society&#039;s life, as a bunch of people come together and quickly realize that they can each secure greater security for themselves by establishing rules that apply to all of them -- even though the social contract might cost them some freedoms. Then it&#039;s just a matter of conveying these rules to the children, and voila! You have your ethical system.

And then of course we have ethical values that differ from culture to culture, such as the status of women and what they are or are not allowed to do. Or how about sex selection? Polygamy? Racism? Societies can function with OR without these, which is why different cultures have different stances on such issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;ve talked to you before about my thoughts on the consistencies between the ethics of different cultures. There are some very general ethical principles that are common, yes. But I believe this is so because societies could not function without them, almost like a sort of societal natural selection.</p>
<p>You might then look for societies that have died out due to everyone murdering each other. I don&#8217;t know if there are any, but I would also argue that the theory doesn&#8217;t need them. Because societies are made up of individuals, who are constantly making decisions and have the ability to change behaviours, societal evolution doesn&#8217;t need to happen across generations like organismal evolution. So, ethics can be established at the very start of a society&#8217;s life, as a bunch of people come together and quickly realize that they can each secure greater security for themselves by establishing rules that apply to all of them &#8212; even though the social contract might cost them some freedoms. Then it&#8217;s just a matter of conveying these rules to the children, and voila! You have your ethical system.</p>
<p>And then of course we have ethical values that differ from culture to culture, such as the status of women and what they are or are not allowed to do. Or how about sex selection? Polygamy? Racism? Societies can function with OR without these, which is why different cultures have different stances on such issues.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Session 2. Considering Truth: Glimpsing the Moral Law &#8230; and God behind it by Justin Tong</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/home/session-2-ethics/#comment-138</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Tong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 06:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?page_id=31#comment-138</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t agree that Dobzhansky and the other two&#039;s choice of words means much -- to my mind it seems that they simply wrote in such a way as to communicate their meaning in the easiest way possible.

As for Russell, he probably takes offence because his reputation is damaged by the &quot;slander&quot; of those religious people. I guess I can&#039;t really speak for him, but if it were me, I would be outraged not because they had trespassed against an absolute moral law, but because they had done harm to me. It just so happens that in so doing they violated some societally accepted tenets, which gives me the weapon I need to fight back (verbally).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t agree that Dobzhansky and the other two&#8217;s choice of words means much &#8212; to my mind it seems that they simply wrote in such a way as to communicate their meaning in the easiest way possible.</p>
<p>As for Russell, he probably takes offence because his reputation is damaged by the &#8220;slander&#8221; of those religious people. I guess I can&#8217;t really speak for him, but if it were me, I would be outraged not because they had trespassed against an absolute moral law, but because they had done harm to me. It just so happens that in so doing they violated some societally accepted tenets, which gives me the weapon I need to fight back (verbally).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on From Soapberry Bugs to SuperBugs:  Nature’s slippery slide down &amp; Naturalism’s slipperiness all around. by Justin Tong</title>
		<link>http://www.considerthegospel.org/2012/02/13/from-soapberry-bugs-to-superbugs-nature%e2%80%99s-slippery-slide-down-naturalism%e2%80%99s-slipperiness-all-around/#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Tong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 06:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.considerthegospel.org/?p=396#comment-136</guid>
		<description>I will concede, though, that you may have a case with your &quot;accumulation of deleterious mutations&quot; argument. I don&#039;t have an (or &quot;know the,&quot; as a stalwart evolutionist should say) answer to that yet. It may be that mutations are not as commonly deleterious as has previously been thought, but rather are more usually neutral.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will concede, though, that you may have a case with your &#8220;accumulation of deleterious mutations&#8221; argument. I don&#8217;t have an (or &#8220;know the,&#8221; as a stalwart evolutionist should say) answer to that yet. It may be that mutations are not as commonly deleterious as has previously been thought, but rather are more usually neutral.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

